The Rocky Mountain Collegian

Originally posted by

Craig Hawley

Well Phil Ill try to use big boy words. Let's see if I get this correctly. This guy McSwane drops an F bomb and you think there should be no consequences because he is a good editor. There are a plethora ( that's a big boy word Phil ) of reasons why he should be fired. You say that those people that made comments like F Dave have lowered them selves to the articles level they deplore. By saying that you have admitted the article was wrong otherwise the people complaining would not be lowering them selves. You kids are so cute and funny.

First of all freedom isn't free and neither is speech. You only have these rights because the U.S. Military and guys like me ( proud Ex Member of the Air Cav ), fought to give them to you. If you think you have some global right to free speech go to Iran and try your free speech. Oops they might kill you. Also free speech has consequences. Go ahead and yell fire in a crowded theatre and you'll go to jail. Call the White House and threaten to kill the President and you'll go to jail. I notice Dave picked a target that would not fight back. Let's see Dave say F&%^ the Hells Angels. Can you say Bye Bye Dave. So not all speech is free and their are consequences. You can say what you want and we the people can impose sanctions on you , your school and editor until you grow up an use those big college words they teach you.

Dave showed a major lack of vocabulary and the mind of a juvenile. Oh that's right you are juveniles. I know you college kids think it makes you tough or cool to drop the F bomb. Real adults know it does neither. People that resort to cursing just have nothing intelligent to say.

Your argument that the High school kids have heard the F word so what's the harm. I can't believe a university kid like you can't see the holes in that argument. So as long as kids have had experience with trashy words you should further enhance their exposure. I am sure kids have all seen violence to , but I doubt it is OK to kick some ones butt in front of them. Let me give you an old saying. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It makes your school look like a bunch of second graders. What's next Dave McSwane calling some one a doo doo head. It may play on campus because your all little kids still , but in the adult world we just laugh at your sophomoric writings and do not take seriously any thing you have to say.

So even if the next Editor isn't as talented , if they use those big college words and stop the personal, juvenile attacks we adults might even listen to you and allow you little boys to sit at the grown up table. Until then you are at the bottom of the academic pile.

I was heartened to see that there are at least some students that are offended and want Dave fired. Good for you , and welcome to the adult world. The rest of you who wrote in and said things like F Bush , F Fox News , and other such moronic comments need to go back to your kegger party's and leave the political dialogue to us adults.

GROW UP!

Craig Hawley
GO CAV

No, I think you're the one who needs to GROW UP! I can't believe you're devoting so much energy to chewing out a bunch of college kids for writing something you disliked in their little newspaper.

And do you really think you're contributing anything original or interesting at this point? I've seen letter after letter from you "grown ups" saying pretty much the same things. Such as: "I'm a vet, so I'm GOD", and "move to Iran, scumbag", or "you're a KID because you don't think like I do."

And the most popular: "Ha ha, the corporations are pulling money from your paper. Boy do I feel avenged."

But hey, I guess you just felt compelled to add to the discourse on free speech. So that means McSwane's "childish" editorial was pretty darn effective.

Oh, and I'm sorry that a bunch of "children" hurt your poor little feelings. However, huffing and puffing at students much younger than you and with less life experience makes you sound like a BIG BABY!

Thank you for making my point. I thought since you were 18 and supposedly an adult that it might be ok to take you to task. I am sorry if you kids are so thinned skin you can't take adult criticism.

Also you are very correct that the article was effective. Effective in making your School look foolish even to your alumni. You want the perks of being an adult but none of the responisibility.

As far as my service I never said I was God. But I am damn proud of it and should be. My step-son served 4 tours in the gulf and I am proud of him. You have the right to be wrong because of the military and you are. Just curious what you have done to ensure our feedoms.

If McSwane didn't want the backlash then don't behave like a child.

Hurt my feelings. Man you couldn't hurt my feelings on your best day. You kids spout off all the time about free speech yet when I use mine you get all upset. Well boo hoo.

From your comments it sounds more like you who is upset.

Finally some advice from an adult. It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool , then to open it and remove all doubt. Thanks for helping make my point.

Originally posted by

Craig Hawley

Well Phil Ill try to use big boy words. Let's see if I get this correctly. This guy McSwane drops an F bomb and you think there should be no consequences because he is a good editor. There are a plethora ( that's a big boy word Phil ) of reasons why he should be fired. You say that those people that made comments like F Dave have lowered them selves to the articles level they deplore. By saying that you have admitted the article was wrong otherwise the people complaining would not be lowering them selves. You kids are so cute and funny.

First of all freedom isn't free and neither is speech. You only have these rights because the U.S. Military and guys like me ( proud Ex Member of the Air Cav ), fought to give them to you. If you think you have some global right to free speech go to Iran and try your free speech. Oops they might kill you. Also free speech has consequences. Go ahead and yell fire in a crowded theatre and you'll go to jail. Call the White House and threaten to kill the President and you'll go to jail. I notice Dave picked a target that would not fight back. Let's see Dave say F&%^ the Hells Angels. Can you say Bye Bye Dave. So not all speech is free and their are consequences. You can say what you want and we the people can impose sanctions on you , your school and editor until you grow up an use those big college words they teach you.

Dave showed a major lack of vocabulary and the mind of a juvenile. Oh that's right you are juveniles. I know you college kids think it makes you tough or cool to drop the F bomb. Real adults know it does neither. People that resort to cursing just have nothing intelligent to say.

Your argument that the High school kids have heard the F word so what's the harm. I can't believe a university kid like you can't see the holes in that argument. So as long as kids have had experience with trashy words you should further enhance their exposure. I am sure kids have all seen violence to , but I doubt it is OK to kick some ones butt in front of them. Let me give you an old saying. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It makes your school look like a bunch of second graders. What's next Dave McSwane calling some one a doo doo head. It may play on campus because your all little kids still , but in the adult world we just laugh at your sophomoric writings and do not take seriously any thing you have to say.

So even if the next Editor isn't as talented , if they use those big college words and stop the personal, juvenile attacks we adults might even listen to you and allow you little boys to sit at the grown up table. Until then you are at the bottom of the academic pile.

I was heartened to see that there are at least some students that are offended and want Dave fired. Good for you , and welcome to the adult world. The rest of you who wrote in and said things like F Bush , F Fox News , and other such moronic comments need to go back to your kegger party's and leave the political dialogue to us adults.

GROW UP!

Craig Hawley
GO CAV

Originally posted by

Craig Hawley

Well Phil Ill try to use big boy words. Let's see if I get this correctly. This guy McSwane drops an F bomb and you think there should be no consequences because he is a good editor. There are a plethora ( that's a big boy word Phil ) of reasons why he should be fired. You say that those people that made comments like F Dave have lowered them selves to the articles level they deplore. By saying that you have admitted the article was wrong otherwise the people complaining would not be lowering them selves. You kids are so cute and funny.

First of all freedom isn't free and neither is speech. You only have these rights because the U.S. Military and guys like me ( proud Ex Member of the Air Cav ), fought to give them to you. If you think you have some global right to free speech go to Iran and try your free speech. Oops they might kill you. Also free speech has consequences. Go ahead and yell fire in a crowded theatre and you'll go to jail. Call the White House and threaten to kill the President and you'll go to jail. I notice Dave picked a target that would not fight back. Let's see Dave say F&%^ the Hells Angels. Can you say Bye Bye Dave. So not all speech is free and their are consequences. You can say what you want and we the people can impose sanctions on you , your school and editor until you grow up an use those big college words they teach you.

Dave showed a major lack of vocabulary and the mind of a juvenile. Oh that's right you are juveniles. I know you college kids think it makes you tough or cool to drop the F bomb. Real adults know it does neither. People that resort to cursing just have nothing intelligent to say.

Your argument that the High school kids have heard the F word so what's the harm. I can't believe a university kid like you can't see the holes in that argument. So as long as kids have had experience with trashy words you should further enhance their exposure. I am sure kids have all seen violence to , but I doubt it is OK to kick some ones butt in front of them. Let me give you an old saying. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It makes your school look like a bunch of second graders. What's next Dave McSwane calling some one a doo doo head. It may play on campus because your all little kids still , but in the adult world we just laugh at your sophomoric writings and do not take seriously any thing you have to say.

So even if the next Editor isn't as talented , if they use those big college words and stop the personal, juvenile attacks we adults might even listen to you and allow you little boys to sit at the grown up table. Until then you are at the bottom of the academic pile.

I was heartened to see that there are at least some students that are offended and want Dave fired. Good for you , and welcome to the adult world. The rest of you who wrote in and said things like F Bush , F Fox News , and other such moronic comments need to go back to your kegger party's and leave the political dialogue to us adults.

GROW UP!

Craig Hawley
GO CAV

Very nice post. You have correctly identified the problem with the majority of those on the left, especially those suffering from BDS (Bush derangement syndrome( The best way to describe them is via a quote which perfectly showcases the liberals among us.

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

Originally posted by

Craig Hawley

Well Phil Ill try to use big boy words. Let's see if I get this correctly. This guy McSwane drops an F bomb and you think there should be no consequences because he is a good editor. There are a plethora ( that's a big boy word Phil ) of reasons why he should be fired. You say that those people that made comments like F Dave have lowered them selves to the articles level they deplore. By saying that you have admitted the article was wrong otherwise the people complaining would not be lowering them selves. You kids are so cute and funny.

First of all freedom isn't free and neither is speech. You only have these rights because the U.S. Military and guys like me ( proud Ex Member of the Air Cav ), fought to give them to you. If you think you have some global right to free speech go to Iran and try your free speech. Oops they might kill you. Also free speech has consequences. Go ahead and yell fire in a crowded theatre and you'll go to jail. Call the White House and threaten to kill the President and you'll go to jail. I notice Dave picked a target that would not fight back. Let's see Dave say F&%^ the Hells Angels. Can you say Bye Bye Dave. So not all speech is free and their are consequences. You can say what you want and we the people can impose sanctions on you , your school and editor until you grow up an use those big college words they teach you.

Dave showed a major lack of vocabulary and the mind of a juvenile. Oh that's right you are juveniles. I know you college kids think it makes you tough or cool to drop the F bomb. Real adults know it does neither. People that resort to cursing just have nothing intelligent to say.

Your argument that the High school kids have heard the F word so what's the harm. I can't believe a university kid like you can't see the holes in that argument. So as long as kids have had experience with trashy words you should further enhance their exposure. I am sure kids have all seen violence to , but I doubt it is OK to kick some ones butt in front of them. Let me give you an old saying. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It makes your school look like a bunch of second graders. What's next Dave McSwane calling some one a doo doo head. It may play on campus because your all little kids still , but in the adult world we just laugh at your sophomoric writings and do not take seriously any thing you have to say.

So even if the next Editor isn't as talented , if they use those big college words and stop the personal, juvenile attacks we adults might even listen to you and allow you little boys to sit at the grown up table. Until then you are at the bottom of the academic pile.

I was heartened to see that there are at least some students that are offended and want Dave fired. Good for you , and welcome to the adult world. The rest of you who wrote in and said things like F Bush , F Fox News , and other such moronic comments need to go back to your kegger party's and leave the political dialogue to us adults.

GROW UP!

Craig Hawley
GO CAV

I think the editor, although using the wrong vocabulary brought up an idea that was in a lot of students minds. If he had said it any other way, there wouldn't have been this negative coverage. He expressed a point that was insightful in the incorrect manner. I don't believe he needs to grow up, perhaps he needs to choose less confrontational words. However, I support him if he decides not to resign, and I don't believe what he did was a bad slip up. Granted, the way he argued for his rights may have demonstrated holes in his argument, and yes, this could have seemed childish. Yet instead of just point out holes in his argument and showing the weakening over all of the argument, you attack him with "freedom isn't free, I fought for it, and the editor would be killed in Iraq for doing the same." Is not a legit way to deal with this. Yes he would have been killed in Iraq for saying such things about their leader, but I'm sure if he still denounced Bush, he would be looked at highly by some. Although I do agree with you that 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't think he should resign, but I think that certain words, no matter how often they might be used should be seen in a public publication. I'm sure the editor can avoid this in future writings, and maybe he should write an apology in case he unintentionally hurt people by these words. Sadly I don't think we will see the day he calls someone a "doo doo head"

Originally posted by

Craig Hawley

Well Phil Ill try to use big boy words. Let's see if I get this correctly. This guy McSwane drops an F bomb and you think there should be no consequences because he is a good editor. There are a plethora ( that's a big boy word Phil ) of reasons why he should be fired. You say that those people that made comments like F Dave have lowered them selves to the articles level they deplore. By saying that you have admitted the article was wrong otherwise the people complaining would not be lowering them selves. You kids are so cute and funny.

First of all freedom isn't free and neither is speech. You only have these rights because the U.S. Military and guys like me ( proud Ex Member of the Air Cav ), fought to give them to you. If you think you have some global right to free speech go to Iran and try your free speech. Oops they might kill you. Also free speech has consequences. Go ahead and yell fire in a crowded theatre and you'll go to jail. Call the White House and threaten to kill the President and you'll go to jail. I notice Dave picked a target that would not fight back. Let's see Dave say F&%^ the Hells Angels. Can you say Bye Bye Dave. So not all speech is free and their are consequences. You can say what you want and we the people can impose sanctions on you , your school and editor until you grow up an use those big college words they teach you.

Dave showed a major lack of vocabulary and the mind of a juvenile. Oh that's right you are juveniles. I know you college kids think it makes you tough or cool to drop the F bomb. Real adults know it does neither. People that resort to cursing just have nothing intelligent to say.

Your argument that the High school kids have heard the F word so what's the harm. I can't believe a university kid like you can't see the holes in that argument. So as long as kids have had experience with trashy words you should further enhance their exposure. I am sure kids have all seen violence to , but I doubt it is OK to kick some ones butt in front of them. Let me give you an old saying. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It makes your school look like a bunch of second graders. What's next Dave McSwane calling some one a doo doo head. It may play on campus because your all little kids still , but in the adult world we just laugh at your sophomoric writings and do not take seriously any thing you have to say.

So even if the next Editor isn't as talented , if they use those big college words and stop the personal, juvenile attacks we adults might even listen to you and allow you little boys to sit at the grown up table. Until then you are at the bottom of the academic pile.

I was heartened to see that there are at least some students that are offended and want Dave fired. Good for you , and welcome to the adult world. The rest of you who wrote in and said things like F Bush , F Fox News , and other such moronic comments need to go back to your kegger party's and leave the political dialogue to us adults.

GROW UP!

Craig Hawley
GO CAV

Curious about Craig's comments, is it right that you fear reprisals from this comment "F&%^ the Hells Angels"? Does it seem right that you should also fear reprisals from the same statement against the leader of the free world who is supposed to uphold values against this type of fear? While not likely to go "Bye Bye" loss of his career is pretty serious.

Oh please. This comment must be a joke. First, your own President and Vice President have dropped the F bomb on numerous occassions; the VP even dropping it in the chamber of Congress. You're just angry because it's against one of your guys. If there was a huge national debate about VP using it, I'm sure all of the conservatives would be telling liberals how 'whimpy' they are because they are only words.

Second, and more important...I CAN'T STAND military guys like you who tell people that because you have fought for freedom of speech that somehow you now have the authority to tell people who can say what. FUrthermore, if you somehow think that the current 'war' somehow justifies your strength, you're crazy; once again..Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and had no intentions of invading the US. Third, not since WWII, soldiers like you have not fought for any freedom of anything within the American boundries. You have fought for politicians who have desired to have you fight for US interests (oil, a phony 'red-scare'). The actual continent and those contained within have not had their freedom threatened since Hitler.

Finally, where is this grown up world of which you speak? Once again, your President and VP have used the F word in public. Did you decry Cheney for being a child-like Statesman for telling a fellow Statesman to "go fuck yourself" because Leahy was calling him out on his hypocrisy? I bet that would be ok to you because Cheney was defending himself, right? Oh..and about your grown-up world, war is the equivalent to your 'kicking butt' statement. On the playground, when one doesn't get what they want through words, they turn to fighting. Bush and this administration could have continued the diplomacy with Iraq (Iraq---that DID NOT have any ties to 9/11), like his father did. He was a crazy man secluded in the Middle East as a threat to nobody but his own people---his own people who then had their own obligation to rise up if they weren't happy (the same way we did against England back in the 1700s).

Now quit whining and go lay down.

Originally posted by

Craig Hawley

Well Phil Ill try to use big boy words. Let's see if I get this correctly. This guy McSwane drops an F bomb and you think there should be no consequences because he is a good editor. There are a plethora ( that's a big boy word Phil ) of reasons why he should be fired. You say that those people that made comments like F Dave have lowered them selves to the articles level they deplore. By saying that you have admitted the article was wrong otherwise the people complaining would not be lowering them selves. You kids are so cute and funny.

First of all freedom isn't free and neither is speech. You only have these rights because the U.S. Military and guys like me ( proud Ex Member of the Air Cav ), fought to give them to you. If you think you have some global right to free speech go to Iran and try your free speech. Oops they might kill you. Also free speech has consequences. Go ahead and yell fire in a crowded theatre and you'll go to jail. Call the White House and threaten to kill the President and you'll go to jail. I notice Dave picked a target that would not fight back. Let's see Dave say F&%^ the Hells Angels. Can you say Bye Bye Dave. So not all speech is free and their are consequences. You can say what you want and we the people can impose sanctions on you , your school and editor until you grow up an use those big college words they teach you.

Dave showed a major lack of vocabulary and the mind of a juvenile. Oh that's right you are juveniles. I know you college kids think it makes you tough or cool to drop the F bomb. Real adults know it does neither. People that resort to cursing just have nothing intelligent to say.

Your argument that the High school kids have heard the F word so what's the harm. I can't believe a university kid like you can't see the holes in that argument. So as long as kids have had experience with trashy words you should further enhance their exposure. I am sure kids have all seen violence to , but I doubt it is OK to kick some ones butt in front of them. Let me give you an old saying. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It makes your school look like a bunch of second graders. What's next Dave McSwane calling some one a doo doo head. It may play on campus because your all little kids still , but in the adult world we just laugh at your sophomoric writings and do not take seriously any thing you have to say.

So even if the next Editor isn't as talented , if they use those big college words and stop the personal, juvenile attacks we adults might even listen to you and allow you little boys to sit at the grown up table. Until then you are at the bottom of the academic pile.

I was heartened to see that there are at least some students that are offended and want Dave fired. Good for you , and welcome to the adult world. The rest of you who wrote in and said things like F Bush , F Fox News , and other such moronic comments need to go back to your kegger party's and leave the political dialogue to us adults.

GROW UP!

Craig Hawley
GO CAV

I think this has to be the most effective free speech stunt ever pulled. We have the entire campus, alumni, concerned and proud parents alike all voicing their opinions and thoughts on our First Amendment rights. Way to go McSwane. Maybe we should print "F*&K Bush more often. It might get us away from our TV sets and out of the drive-thru line long enough to learn a few things. Keep up the good work.

My Step Daughter goes to CSU and trust me I know that this is not representative of he University. I agree that we should boycott the Collegian until McSwane does the first class and adult thing in his lifead steps down. Better yet have the University show sound judgement and remove him. He is full of him self and needs to be taken down a few pegs.

The students that support him are just as infitile as he is , and uninformed.

Originally posted by

Alumni

McSwane has made CSU look very foolish, very childish and exceptionally low class. I am embarrassed for my alma mater and hope people nationwide realize McSwane's action is just an attempt at an individual trying desparately to draw attention to himself. Discourse is fine. Criticism of the President is fine. However, there are much more intelligent and thoughtful ways to put forth an idea or opinion. Maybe the Collegian should try to be professional and not be a tabloid. McSwane is realizing that in the real world, one's actions can have devestating results.

I will check and see who pays for advertisements in the Collegian and not buy or support their product. I will continue to boycott everything Collegian until McSwane either steps down or is forcebly removed and appropriate appologies are made.

This isn't about free speech. It's about appropriate behavior, responsible behavior and showing CSU is a university with class.

Originally posted by

Alumni

McSwane has made CSU look very foolish, very childish and exceptionally low class. I am embarrassed for my alma mater and hope people nationwide realize McSwane's action is just an attempt at an individual trying desparately to draw attention to himself. Discourse is fine. Criticism of the President is fine. However, there are much more intelligent and thoughtful ways to put forth an idea or opinion. Maybe the Collegian should try to be professional and not be a tabloid. McSwane is realizing that in the real world, one's actions can have devestating results.

I will check and see who pays for advertisements in the Collegian and not buy or support their product. I will continue to boycott everything Collegian until McSwane either steps down or is forcebly removed and appropriate appologies are made.

This isn't about free speech. It's about appropriate behavior, responsible behavior and showing CSU is a university with class.

I just want to say that you don't speak for all Alumni. I applaud the editor. Now I just wish that everyone would stop running their high horses at him, dismount and go find a real issue to protest.

Originally posted by

Donald Hackett

Go to this website http://www.epic.org/free_speech/

Obscenity IS NOT PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!

There are multiple case rulings by the Supreme Court.

The word "f***" by itself is not obscene. As a political statement (regardless of its merit, originality or class) it is indeed protected.

(Oh, and writing in upper case and adding exclamation points doesn't make your arguments any more accurate or persuasive.)

Nice Nick BigAz,
You are wrong when you say the word F$%^ is not obscene on it's face. If you were correct thenI could say F$%^ on the TV. You go right ahead and prove your point by saying F^&% on air and after the FCC fines you , I think you'll need another student loan to complete your studies.

Originally posted by

Donald Hackett

Go to this website http://www.epic.org/free_speech/

Obscenity IS NOT PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!

There are multiple case rulings by the Supreme Court.

That is because the FCC has defined it as such. Stop letting your government and the media define things for you. I'm sure everyone who has posted has used the word Fuck in their life. I'm also sure you use it regularly (at least once a month). Is it really THAT bad folks? Seriously? I think this may just be a reason to get angry at liberals. Did you get this upset when Cheney dropped the F-bomb on a Senator? I seem to remember Cheney telling Sen Leahy to "go fuck yourself" on the Senate Chamber floor. This guy is supposed to be a Statesman. Is that a leader? Did the media or any SINGLE ONE OF YOU get upset over that? How about when Bush was caught with the mic still on during a speech and he dropped the F-bomb? Did that upset you? Did you call for his resignation? You're being a hypocrite if you didn't. But then again, that's typical of conservatives...like your friend Newt Gingrich, who couldn't get enough of the Monica Lewinski 'sex' scandal with Clinton and turned out to be an adulterer himself---and DURING the Clinton scandal at that! Newt's been married three times, Clinton once. Same for Rushie. Yeah...you conservatives sure have a leg to stand on when you criticize others. Get over yourselves!

Originally posted by

Donald Hackett

Go to this website http://www.epic.org/free_speech/

Obscenity IS NOT PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!

There are multiple case rulings by the Supreme Court.

Originally posted by

Donald Hackett

Craig Hawley
posted 9/27/07 @ 12:23 PM MST
Nice Nick BigAz,
You are wrong when you say the word F$%^ is not obscene on it's face. If you were correct thenI could say F$%^ on the TV. You go right ahead and prove your point by saying F^&% on air and after the FCC fines you , I think you'll need another student loan to complete your studies.

Craig, you are wrong.

Broadcast media has different rule than print media because the airwaves are considered to be publicly owned. This is why you can fined for saying "fuck" on TV.

"Fuck" is not obscene in the context of First Amendment law. The SCOTUS explicitly (no pun intended) ruled as such in Cohen v. California.

Like it or not, George W. Bush is the elected leader of the greatest country on earth. If you are an American citizen, then he is your leader. You may not like it, you may not like him that doesn't matter. Calling him names and regurgitating the far left buzz words only shows your ignorance and incapability of individual thought.

You need to grow up and try to articulate your thoughts a little more maturely.

Oh Sean you are so funny. Bush is not my President. Your like the Bunny Rabbit trapped in the headlights that closes his eyes and says maybe if I wish you wouldn't see me you won't. You are just adding to the reason wh we adults find you children so what's the word oh yea childish.

Bush is your President. Get over it and your self. I thought Clinton ( who had a chance to get Bin Laden but decided to bomb a milk factory with cruise missiles instead ) was a joke who turned my White House into a whore house , but I still acknowledged him as my President and never called him names. You see that is how civilized adults have discourse.

As far as wishing Bush wasn't your President is concerned I have this to say. Crap in one hand and put your wish'sin the other and see which fill up first. LOL!

Grow up and deal with reality.

Originally posted by

Sean Greene

Well I finally found something to disagree with you on. You ackowledge Bush as "the nation's leader". Bush never has been, is not, and never will be my leader. Congratulations on bringing the rightful opposition to America's own oppresive dictator to the minds of the country.

Originally posted by

Sean Greene

Well I finally found something to disagree with you on. You ackowledge Bush as "the nation's leader". Bush never has been, is not, and never will be my leader. Congratulations on bringing the rightful opposition to America's own oppresive dictator to the minds of the country.

Interesting. You mention Clinton's failure to apprehend or kill Osama Bin Laden. Did you know that President Clinton had a specialized task force whose only mission was to hunt down and remove Bin Laden. Want to guess what happened to them when Bush took the presidency? One of Bush's first acts was to disband this force. Yet, when September 11 occured, Clinton was offered up as the scapegoat. At least he tried! He realized the threat that existed in Osama Bin Laden. Bush failed to track him down after 9-11 so he decided to divert the public's attention with an agressive war against Iraq that was condemned by the UN (sadly this worked very well). When he did finally track down Bin Laden in the mountains of Afghanistan, he refused to allow a US Marine force in the area capture him and instead requested that local Afghanistani militia. Needless to say, they failed. We have a president who has explicity said "We are not leaving Iraq while I am president (heh)". If you don't believe those to be the words of a tyrant, I suggest that you study the famous tyrants of the past. Look for some similarities. My father (A Republican) once told me that you are a Democrat when you are young because you have a heart and you are a Republican when you are old because you have a brain. The Alumni who have suddenly dropped their support for their school certainly give credence to this statement. I feel sorry for you; I refuse to give up hope. The commonly held thought is that the youth are ignorant and their elders see the world through comprehending eyes. You have proven that notion false. Youth is not a crime. I still have a heart and it protests against this so called "leader" with all of it's strength. Were those thoughts articulated maturely enough for you?

Originally posted by

Sean Greene

Well I finally found something to disagree with you on. You ackowledge Bush as "the nation's leader". Bush never has been, is not, and never will be my leader. Congratulations on bringing the rightful opposition to America's own oppresive dictator to the minds of the country.

Sean: Oppressive dictator? In this country? Sean, when's the last time you were imprisoned for spouting your (insane, in this case) opinions?

(sound of crickets chirping)

I'm sure the citizens of Burma or North Korea or Venezuela would have something to say about your definition of "oppressive dictator."

From Wiktionary:

"dictator (plural dictators):

A totalitarian leader of a dictatorship. They wield absolute authority, usually to the detriment of the people"

So, care to tell me how you have benefited from illegal wire tapping? Or the firing of US Prosecutors who were investigating corruption in Republican congressmen? Or would those be a "detriment of the people"?

From Wikipedia:

"In modern usage, the term 'dictator' is generally used to describe a leader who holds an extraordinary amount of personal power, especially the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly."

Go ahead and lie to yourself and say that Bush does not have "an extraordinary amount of personal power". And it is laughable to think that he is effectivly restrained by a legislative assembly. This would be the same legislative assembly that initially refused to approve of the Iraq war. Bush then had his attorneys prove that, should Congress not approve of his war, he could legally use the declaration of war from the First Gulf War as some of it's combat objectives (i.e. the removal of Saddam Hussein from a seat of power). Congress was forced to either accept the war or acknowledge that they had no power over the president any more. As it is difficult for anyone in a place of power to admit that they have lost that power, they of course decided to pretend that everything was business as usual. You want to tell me that this Congress can control Bush? They tried that. It was called the U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, 2007. Bush vetoed it, denying Veterans and Katrina victims much needed funding simply because it set a timeline for the withdrawl of US troops from Iraq. But no, we've only lost 3,801 American soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis. We need to lose many, many more before Bush admits his mistake (assuming he ever does).

President Bush is a dictator in every sense of the word.

Originally posted by

Sean Greene

Well I finally found something to disagree with you on. You ackowledge Bush as "the nation's leader". Bush never has been, is not, and never will be my leader. Congratulations on bringing the rightful opposition to America's own oppresive dictator to the minds of the country.

I posted something earlier, but can't find it. Oh well. I'll paraphrase: I'm glad you've found a way to voice your opinions without repercussions considering the "oppressive dictator" in office.

My hat's off to you, soldier. Carry on, oh fighter of liberty!

Your previous post is two posts above your most recent one. My reply is right below it. Plese read it; I don't feel like repeating myself.

Originally posted by

Mindy

And one more thing: I don't think the argument is "high school students visiting read the F-bomb..".

I see and hear Elementary school kids using worse language. I call them the "Chocolate Milk Kids" on Xbox Live.

Originally posted by

Kelly Walters

Profanity?

Is the word F*** profanity? Really? Profanity is the apathy of Americans who don't give a damn that we are in an illegal war of choice and over a million innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq since March of 2003. Profanity is the forgotton and minimized wounded of that same war. Profanity is the War Criminal President wiping his ass with the Constitution while posing for girl scout photo ops. Profanity is the Democrats in Congress that continually cave to the most unpopular American Fascist in history who happens to live in the White House. Profanity is the outing of a CIA agent in the name of Rove Revenge. Profanity is the complicit and concentrated corporate media putting profits before truth. Profanity is the kool aid drinking sheeple that swallow without question the propaganda lies that fill the air and the page. Profanity is the unconditional trading of civil liberties for the dream of security. Profanity is the embezzeled $9.4 billion dollars of cash that was flown into Iraq on shrink wrapped pallets loaded on C-130s and never seen again. Profanity is the supplanting of the Geneva Conventions with the untenable policy of torture. Words only have power when you give them power. Given that, NOT giving a F*** is profanity. Yes Virginia, there is profanity but you won't find it in the F*** Bush headline.

Kelly Walters
Anchorage, Alaska
CSU 1986

One More: Profanity is the posting of comments that are lies and have no basis in fact by some ignorant bitch from Alaska!

You, Mr. Quinney, are a moron. You look down on this woman for using profanity in her post and proceed to use profanity in your own! You continue to demonstrate your own ignorance by listing the fact that she lives in Alaska as support for your arguement. Your single piece of evidence for your position is a baseless, offensive generalization. I shudder to think how any of that made a scrap of logical sense in your mind. If you are truly the best representative to elaborate on the poistion against the article, then the world has become a very sad place.

Kelly,

Are you sure you went to CSU? Your rant is so full of inaccuracies it would appear you are completely uneducated.

I forgot to add. Where do you get your information? C-130s are INTRA-THEATER aircraft which means, they stay in country... oh well, so much for accuracies.

Oh, seeing how you claim Bush is the end to all evil and everything, you may want to check this Liberal quotes..

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to
develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is
clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great
deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use
nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the
greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten
times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the
U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if
appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond
effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of
mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom
Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of
mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region
and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of
mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his
weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and
nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War
status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and
is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-
range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and
others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and
a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the
mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass
destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical
weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible
to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as
Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and
developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are
confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical
and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash
course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities.
Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority
to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I
believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his
hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working
aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear
weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have
alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in
development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years,
every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and
destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear
capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show
that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al
Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam
Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and
chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that
Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing
capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass
destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein.
He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He
presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently
prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his
consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of
Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

Dear Mr. Alumni,

You seem to be a Republican who revels in your "command" of history, as well as telling people how stupid they are in your opinion. So as I begin this email response, I should probably tell you as a historian where my own data comes from. George Washington University hosts the nation's National Security Archives; and in 1998 the CIA released a million pages of previously classified documents. In 1999 they released another three million pages; and in the year 2000 some five million more pages. So my version of history comes, not from Republican talking points, but from the documented history of our actions in the last half century as written down--and most reluctantly admitted--by our own government.

You say you support our war in Iraq in the interests of supporting Democracy and freedom. Then you should realize it is no longer a matter of liberal speculation whether or not the United States has in fact supported a number of repressive, totalitarian regimes in contrary to our self-proclaimed image as the leaders of freedom and democracy. The only question is whether you as a reader are willing to believe what your own government has documented vis a vis its actions. And I suspect the answer to that is no: it's far too inconvenient for your Republican belief system to accept any such thing.

First, let's just do some simple math on the impacts of terrorism to Americans. Since 1968, beginning with the assassination of Robert Kennedy by a Palestinian, Americans have suffered some 6,357 deaths, including those of 9/11. If you'd like, for the sake of argument, I'll add Pearl Harbor to the list as well as the current deaths of our troops in Iraq and round out the whole equation to 14,000. Let me first agree, that's a big number.

Number of refugees created in America: none.

Let's contrast that against the known casualty figures in the Middle East that are derived from policy actions taken by the United States and documented in these CIA releases: 4.3 million dead since 1948, including nearly one half million children who died as a result of our otherwise ineffective economic sanctions in Iraq--a statistic which drew a rare apology from the US Secretary of State. And over 13 million refugees since 1948, with over 50,000 per month currently departing Iraq all by itself. Our own American casualties, in comparison, represent 1/5 of one percent of their numbers. And that's just the middle east, one small part of the world.

The CIA documentation on our actions here in our own hemisphere with respect to our stellar support for dictatorship in countries such as Nicaragua, Chile, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, El Salvador is astounding. Our own logistics support from our own military installations for Operation Condor, the methodology in which these dictatorships assisted in tracking down and helping to kill each others political enemies is even more astounding; and the the deaths suffered in these countries as a result of documented US policy actions is an order of magnitude higher than 14,000.

You say you support our attempts to build democracy in Iraq? Based on what track record? Our track record in building democracy is pathetic. Over 90 years of military involvement in Haiti: no democracy. Over 20 years in Vietnam: no democracy. 60 years in Palestine: no democracy, at least not one we recognize. Japan: yes democracy, but it took two atomic weapons to force them into it.

Vietnam. Cut and run. Here's some trivia for you, Mr. Alumni. In October of 2001, just one month after 9/11, George Bush and a Republican-controlled Congress signed into law a bi-lateral trade agreement with Vietnam, still noted by our own CIA as a "communist regime," and still noted as one of the 17 most oppressive regimes in the world by Freedom House. Vietnam, home to AmCham Vietnam, a branch office of the American Chamber of Congess located in Ho Chi Minh City whose membership includes a who's who of conservative companies in America included Dick Cheney's Halliburton. The result of this "trade agreement?" Yet one more instance of a multi-billion dollar trade deficit hurting American taxpayers and profiting corporations. So explain this to your audience here, Mr. Alumni: if billions of dollars of trade (and profit) with an oppressive, communist regime seems somehow appropriate to you, then tell us why it is that we couldn't have simply done that in 1955 under the Republican Eisenhower before he set us on the road to a national disaster in Vietnam---and saved an entire generation of Americans.

As for the Iranians, the Republican party line seems to simply be that they are simply crazy terrorists Let me ask you, Mr. History: who drew first blood? Did the Iranians help engineer and support a coup against our government in 1953? Did the Iranians install a brutal dictator, complete with his own secret police force SAVAK, in the United States whose reign would last 29 years? Did the Iranians stand idly by while the Iraqis used chemical weapons (made in Florida) on Americans for eight years? Did the Iranians help put Saddam Hussein into power? Do you even know, for example, that Hamas wouldn't even exist if not for the war between Iran and Iraq, in which we supported Iraq?

If you intend to slap people in the face with your purported command of the "facts," then you need to bring a better game to the floor.

Jim Raftery
Class of 1970

Hi Kelly,

I suspect your a closet Bush Supporter. LOL! Typical Liberal. You seem to really like the word profanity. We got your cute idea after the 2nd " Profanity Is ". After that it was just repetitive and meaningless.

To even have this debate their must be life. If your dead your opinion is worthless. I have a challenge for all you Bush hating people. Tell me what you plan on doing to keep my nation and it's citizens safe. A child can complain , it takes a person of substance to come up with a solution. So all of you Liberal yahoo's who like to trash Bush , the Miltary , and every other thing in this country are completely irrelevant until you come up with a solution. At least right or wrong Geroge Bush is trying to do something about it while people like you sit behind their keyboard and bitch.

My grandfather had a great saying. If your not part of the solution , your part of the problem. Can't wait to hear your solutions to the problem of Global Islamic Fundementalist on a Holy Jihad from Allah intent on destroying our Nation , the west.

If you were in any of their countries, you would be in a Bhurka and would be beaten or killed for your comments. I was born in the Hymalaya Mountains to Missionary parents and have seen first hand what religous fanatics do to women and children.

So until you can come up with a solution to keeping us all alive your opinion is irrelevant.

Finally at the risk of using PROFANITY since you like the word so much I will tell you what my Drill Instructor in the Army told us. Opinions are like ASSHOLES , every one has one. LOL!

I'll be waiting for your pearls of wisdom for this forum on how you are going to fix things. If you don't respond then these people will know I was right and you are part of the problem. If you do respnd then we can pick apart your solutions like you do Bush.

Respectively awaiting your ideas.

Originally posted by

Kelly Walters

Profanity?

Is the word F*** profanity? Really? Profanity is the apathy of Americans who don't give a damn that we are in an illegal war of choice and over a million innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq since March of 2003. Profanity is the forgotton and minimized wounded of that same war. Profanity is the War Criminal President wiping his ass with the Constitution while posing for girl scout photo ops. Profanity is the Democrats in Congress that continually cave to the most unpopular American Fascist in history who happens to live in the White House. Profanity is the outing of a CIA agent in the name of Rove Revenge. Profanity is the complicit and concentrated corporate media putting profits before truth. Profanity is the kool aid drinking sheeple that swallow without question the propaganda lies that fill the air and the page. Profanity is the unconditional trading of civil liberties for the dream of security. Profanity is the embezzeled $9.4 billion dollars of cash that was flown into Iraq on shrink wrapped pallets loaded on C-130s and never seen again. Profanity is the supplanting of the Geneva Conventions with the untenable policy of torture. Words only have power when you give them power. Given that, NOT giving a F*** is profanity. Yes Virginia, there is profanity but you won't find it in the F*** Bush headline.

Kelly Walters
Anchorage, Alaska
CSU 1986

You know, you're right. Bush is protecting us. I don't know what the world would be like if Bush hadn't invaded Iraq. Why, if that had happened, Iraq still wouldn't have WMDs, the UN might still be a respected organization that didn't fall down and play dead whenever the US tells it to, the second-largest religion wouldn't have called for a Holy War on our country, and we might have been able to focus on countries that actually support terrorism and have a shred of a connection to Bin Laden (i.e. not Iraq). I mean if we hadn't invaded Iraq, we might even have a positive world image. What TRUE American would want to live in a world like that?

To Mr. Hawley: Here is the best idea I have for you.

www.dictionary.com

That site might actually help you learn the difference between:
your
you're
there
their
they're
to
too
two (for the hell of it)

Do not fear contractions; Osama did not invent them! Think of the above words as having different meanings...And...proper use of those words will bring clarity to your writing style. Are you attending CSU? Did you graduate from CSU? If you answer yes to either of those questions, then it is indeed a sad day for current and former Rams everywhere...

Respectfully Yours,

Kelly Walters
CSU 1986

Sean, where do you get your information? Are you so full of the left wing bias that you can't discern between reality and fantasy? Please take note that I am going to tear apart your post by using facts. Then you can go back to the towers, suck your thumb, hit moveon.org or democratic underground for more talking point and come back firing.

The UN still a respected organization? Are you saying that the UN was respected BEFORE we invaded Iraq? If the UN was so respected, why did Saddam Husein violate and ignore 17 UN resolutions?????? BTW, SH did have WMDs - go ask the Iranians and Kurds how it feels to be gassed..

Iraq and Saddam Hussein was the BIGGEST sponsor of terror! Go ask the families of Palestinain suicide bombers what they did with the money a son or brother earned after blowing himself up in an Israeli marketplace. Let us not forget Al Zarquowi was medically treated and given a place to live after getting hurt in Afhganistan.

Islam has declared Jihad (Holy War) on the United States? I wonder if the Saudis, Yemenites, Turks, Egyptians etc... have received that memo.

Keep drinking the koolaid and spouting untruths. If you keep yelling it long and loud enough, it must be true.

I think that I'm going to transfer. If the alumni that are posting in these threads are truly representative of this school's graduates, I don't think that I could stand to be including among their numbers.

Yes, Saddam Hussein did violate the UN resolutions. Yes, the UN was trying to take care of it via diplomatic means. Do you even understand that word any more? Diplomacy? We in America seemed to have abandoned that as taboo. A shame really. Regardless, the UN was trying to achieve a goal through peace without losing tens of thousands of civilian lives, a step we opted to curtail to further Bush's smokescreen over his inability to capture Bin Laden. Even if it was past the point of diplomatic solutions, it is NOT our place to invade. The whole reason that the UN was formed was to halt aggressive wars and protect world peace. What does it say about our priorities when we choose to not only ignore the other 191 members of the UN, but purposely dismiss their condemnations.

You say that Iraq was the the biggest sponsor of terrorism. I will opt not to respond to a complete and utter falsity such as that. You have been successfully brainwashed. Kudos.

You say that Islam has not declared a Holy War on America? Once again, stupidity rears its ugly head. I have a book suggestion for you: In The Words of Our Enemies by Jed Babbin. The book has a forward by Newt Gingrich and was written by one of your fellow ultra-conservatives. In this conservative book, there are numerous direct quotes from Muslim Imams that declare a jihad on America and urge all Muslims to attack us. So either you are wrong about the jihad or your party is, get your "facts" straight.

I don't recall "yelling" loud and long, so please don't twist my words.

Patiently awaiting for you to "tear apart [my] post using facts",

Sean

You forgot one small thing. It was not the right but the moronic far left that placed the add. If you truly believe it distracted us then shouldn't you be mad at Moveon.org for placing it.

I guess you don't find the fact that these legends in their own minds basically called a decorated war hero a traitor , during a war. I guess the Clinton crowd doesn't mind character assasination since Bill Clinton had no morals or Character.

The whole let's concentrate on Iraq and not the add idea is because it was wrong and the left doesn't want the General public to realize it's candidates are owned by Moveon.org. This organization is a vicious bunch of mental midgets that have the tolerance of Saddam Husein. Disagree with them and they will try to destroy you not have civil discourse with you.

True story here. I went to see Ronald Reagen speak at a college near my house in Los Angeles. The crowd was almost all conservatives. Except for a small group of green mohawk wearing Liberal students. They were shouting War Monger , and other such trash at the top of their lungs.

I engaged them in conversation and tore their arguments apart. They got so mad they started to hit me with their little American flags. Now I can take care of my self being ex Military but I did not strike back. Would have been like beating up a 2 year old girl , easy but wrong and not very satisfying. LOL! The crowd saw this and started throwing cokes and food at them until they ran out of their. Gotta tell you that the Liberals I hav met are some of the most intollerant people on the planet.

It is lie their motto is " give me peace , or I'll kill you ". LMAO

Originally posted by

Nathan

Ah, the distraction of bright, shiny objects.

There is an interesting parallel between what is going on today in Fort Collins and in the US Senate. Lots of people condemning what they see in the newspaper instead of focusing on what is happening in Iraq.

Then again the systematic murder, rape and torture of people makes one queasy.

It is much easier, and more distracting, to focus on a newspaper ad or a four-word editorial. That kind of obscenity I can get good and riled up about.

The utter obscenity of our forced occupation of Iraq, and the appalling humanitarian consequences, can wait for another day.

Look... they mentioned CSU on Rush Limbaugh! I must divert my attention again.